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Hunter Davies in
conversation with 'Digger'
Official Beatles biographer Hunter Davies spent over two years interviewing friends, relatives and
associates of The Beatles as well as spending months with The Beatles themselves, and making
life-long friends of the individual Beatles in the process, to produce 150,000 words.
This was enough for two volumes. This was edited to a single volume and first published in 1968.
It has since been a continued best-seller internationally and is recognised as the definitive
biography of the Fab Four. Hunter appeared at a Beatles convention in London and
kindly agreed to a telephone interview for us.
Phone rings.......
H: Hi David!
D: HELLO!
H: Bang on eight o’clock! You don’t muck around do you?
D: I’m getting quite good at this! ( telephone interviews )
I did it with Annette Andre, she was in New York.
So I check all the clocks around the house ……
H: Throwing your money around!
I’ll switch my machine off…..
I’m in the steam age.
D: What’s that about?
H: I’ve got an Amstrad – it’s going in the Victoria
and Albert museum when I’ve finished.
D: Bloody hell!
H: So I’ve got no email, no er…..
D: No internet?
H: Nothing, no.
D: So you haven’t seen the sixties pop culture site then?
H: Eh?
D: The one that you’re going to be on!
H: Oh, no. I’ll eventually get into it I suppose, but I just
use it as a typewriter – all I need is a word processor.
So long as I can move a few paragraphs around. I don’t
need graphics.( awful feedback noise from Digger’s
recorder sounding like Hendrix on speed…. kicks
the machine as far away as possible from phone! )
D: You’re being taped here. I hope that’s alright.
H: Yeah, sure. I’m more modern than my wife, my wife
also writes books. She’s called Margaret Forster.
D: I know.
H: Good. She still uses pen and ink which her
publisher’s got to put up with.
D: I just can’t see how you can these days ‘cos having
to get out the correction fluid and literally the cutting
and pasting it must be a nightmare.
H: Thirty years with scissors and paste at this
stage in the book.
D: But you did 150,000 words on The Beatles
biography……
H: That was all done with scissors and paste. But
you’re doing that with the computer. But then of
course you had to send it to a typist.
It was hellishly scruffy and awful.
D: And they’d try and interpret it……
H: And they’d try and interpret it.
D: …..And they wouldn’t succeed!
H: Yeah, and you’d have to do it all again. Anyway,
I’m sold on my Amstrad. Yeah, I’ve got no complaints.
When this packs up I’ll try and get a modern equivalent
but I probably won’t get a computer. I just feel that
it has all the facilities I don’t want. I always say the
more facilities you have, like a washing machine,
the more there is to go wrong.
D: Do you take the same sort of attitude with a car?
H: Er, yeah. I’ve got a Jaguar. It’s an old one, but it’s
got a CD – I don’t know how it works, I’ve never put it on.
D: Was it specially adapted to have the CD put in?
H: I think it must have been.
D: Is it an old ‘Inspector Morse’ type Jag?
H: It’s not as old as that. It’s probably five years
old. A ‘K’ reg whatever year that is. And as I say it’s
got a CD but I don’t have any cds. I’ve got a collection
of Beatles cds but no CD player. I just buy them in
junk shops and stuff because I buy everything to
do with The Beatles.
D: So you’re still an avid collector?
H: Oh yeah. I’ve got two great collecting passions in
life. One is The Beatles, anything to do with them.
I’ve got all the records.
D: I really winced when I heard you talk about the
Pepper album that you had signed and
it got nicked ( stolen ).
H: Oh, wasn’t that awful? So I’ve got all the records but
I don’t go in for all the bootlegs or the compilations
or the misprints or the foreign stuff. I really much
prefer paper memorabilia. You know, being a hack
and being a writer, I like to have the magazines and
the news…. the same with my football collection. I don’t
collect medals and I don’t collect shirts. But I love
old magazines and newspapers about football.
And programmes.
D: And tickets?
H: And tickets. I’ve got my world cup 1966 ticket.
D: ( jealous ) Oh! I remember you talking about that.
H: I’ve talked about everything me! Anyway David,
what is it you…….
D: Well, basically it’s just to have a chat.
H: Alright.
D: And I’m glad because one of my first questions
was going to be "Do you ever get tired of talking
about The Beatles" but I think you’ve just answered…..
H: I used to. It was a bit like The Beatles themselves.
When The Beatles were being Beatles – during the time
they were Beatles they were bored rigid talking about
it because everybody asked them the same old questions
and they were bored out of their head. Then the break-up
came – they didn’t want to talk about it, they wanted to
talk about new things, new books, new films, new enterprises.
Didn’t want the same old thing. And that for The Beatles
went on for so many years. It was Anthology really where
you suddenly saw them – they got to a stage in life – I’m
thinking of Paul and George particularly, when they
realised something remarkable had happened to them
twenty, thirty years ago. And it had almost become as if
it had happened to a different person and it was so far
away that they now seemed more prepared to talk about
it because they realised that that would never happen again
and they realised it was remarkable. And Paul, as you know
in the last ten years or so has become a great Beatles
collector. He’s behind a lot of these big prices….. it’s not
actually him bidding but the rumour goes around that
Paul’s bidding so the prices go up. And Paul has got a
great collection now. Now at the time for ten years there
was never a thought of collecting themselves.
D: Have you seen his collection?
Two of Hunter's titles
H: No, but he’s told me about them. Er, and I
keep saying to him " What are you going to do, who
are you going to give it to?" ‘cos as I said at that talk,
mine’s in The British Museum –
The British Library sorry.
D: I went over there a few times in my lunch hour –
I’d go straight for that rather than the Wordsworth
or Dickens – it’s a bit ‘plebby’ I know! ( uncultured )
And you were right, it was always the Japanese
crowding round The Beatles lyrics.
H: Yeah. It was always the Japanese. So he had got
some and he hadn’t decided what to do with it – he’s got
his own little museum. And so, in a way – I’m not comparing
myself with The Beatles, but I felt much the same. After
I’d done The Beatles book I didn’t really want to talk about
it, I wanted to talk about the next project whatever that
was and I’ve done, as you know, forty books, well let’s say
thirty books since The Beatles. And the book you’re
working on is always fresh in your mind and you can hardly
remember the old books. And I suppose I didn’t want to
go through life only being remembered for The Beatles –
I’d rather be known for, not rather be, I also
want to be known for my William Wordsworth book or
George Stephenson or all the other stuff I’ve done -
or Hadrian’s wall or Wainwright. But as the years have
gone on ( laughs ) I’ve realised that I probably will be only
remembered or mostly remembered for being the official
Beatles biographer.
D: I think you share that with people like George
Martin, don’t you?
H: That’s right. George was pissed off for many years
because you know he did so many great records and so
many great things but now he realises, well at least
he’s ‘got something to talk about in my old age’. And
I suppose I feel the same. But, there are so many…..
like you, so many real experts…..
D: I’m not an expert!
H: I honestly feel humbled beside them because they
just know so much. They think I know so much, but I
don’t! A lot has gone from my mind.
D: The difference is that you were there rubbing
shoulders with them….
H: I was there, and also what I knew I’ve written.
And I brought it up-to-date that time. And I’ve emptied
my mind, so I’ve nothing really that people doing new
books and working on thesis……
D: Yeah, but they’ve got the benefit of what
has been done before.
H: Yeah, so I do get a bit bored in a way ‘cos it’s
just repeating things.
D: You took an unusual stance. It was quite brave of
you to go to Epstein in the first place. It was quite
a nice idea of Paul helping you write that letter, and I’ve
seen a copy of that letter. And it’s very formal actually,
isn’t it?
H: Er….
D: It’s like a CV ( resume ) really.
H: It is. Because I didn’t know Brian – I was at The
Sunday Times at the time and I didn’t know – well it
was really bullshitting in a way. Making myself
out a big deal.
Brian Epstein
D: But you always add another 10 or 15% on to your
CV anyway, don’t you?
H: That’s right. I didn’t make it up. I had written whatever
that letter said….. you’ve got the book haven’t you?
D: Yes, three copies.
H: So what I said in there obviously made it sound
really important.
So it was lucky Paul directed me and encouraged me. If
Paul had said "No, it’s a stupid idea" I’d have gone
away
and never have done it. It’s like all these things, you need
some rough reaction, some enthusiasm.
D: But you did it, that was the thing.
H: That’s right, yeah.
D: And there were other people around who were sort
of pooh-pooing the idea as well, ‘cos they were saying
"they’re only a pop group, what’s the point?"
H: You were at my talk weren’t you?
D: Yup.
H: So you know what it was like. I went back to Heinemman,
they took me on. I told you how much I got - £3,000,
which wasn’t a phenomenal amount.
D: You said that somebody else got 100 times as much…..
H: That was ten years later.
D: But you did it, that was the thing. And then you took an
unusual step. You’d met them briefly but then you
went off for months talking to all the other people.
That must have been quite a difficult decision to make,
being a real fan and all.
H: Well, I didn’t want to bore them too much. I saw them,
from time to time. I went to the studios and I went to
their houses. But I just sort of hung around being sociable
– like a chum. And a fly on the wall. I didn’t really do the
heavy interviewing ‘til really I’d got their life clear in my
head from other people. And I didn’t talk to them about
Hamburg until I’d been to Hamburg myself. So therefore
when I asked them questions I knew a great deal about it.
D: How did they react to you?
H: Well they were fascinated as I said when I came
back and told them stories of what Astrid was doing
and what Hamburg was like and, you know, how she
was getting on.
D: They’d probably forgotten because they were probably
living it through a haze.
H: That’s true. And they’d forgotten the sequence
of events and what Hamburg and the clubs were like.
They were interested in that. That was part of my scheme
really. I could see how bored they were being asked
the same questions.
D: You could see that when they used to get interviewed
in America when they’d always come up with a quip.
Were they really that quick-witted?
H: Well, yeah. But obviously with ordinary face to face
journalists, not being on television, they’d just be bored
and wouldn’t answer and get surly you know. But on national
television they’d just make jokes. Take the piss out of
people and be funny. But mostly….. well, if you can imagine
if everybody all day long was asking the same
sorts of questions.
D: Yes. Do you think they accepted you because you
were relatively young and also from their
"neck of the woods"?
H: I like to think that was the connection. It may
make
sense. But as I said I grew up in the same sort of
fifties council house as George and Paul had grown up in.
I knew exactly the sort of life and the references.
I’d gone to the same sort of grammar school as three of
them had gone to. And read the same books, listened
to the same radio programmes so we all had the same ……
and Carlisle is a very small place. It’s technically in the
north-west so I did feel ……. and I was born in 1936
– John was born in 1940, so I was only four years older
than him, so relatively near in age.
D: Can you give us an idea of your impressions of the
other people who were around them at that time –
Derek Taylor and Mal Evans and so on.
H: I’ve forgotten the sequence of events. Mal and Neil
I spent a lot of time with. During recordings Mal and
Neil would be fixing things and getting sandwiches and
getting clothes. So I spent a lot of time with them
and they were very helpful. And then, I think Derek
was in America, wasn’t he? Derek came back to do
Apple, am I right?
D: That's right.
H: So I did see Derek. I’d actually met Derek previously
on the Daily Express so I knew him. And I think probably
I spoke to him when I was doing the book but I don’t think
he was around. So I met Neil and Mal and I met Ivan Vaughan
and I met Pete Shotton and Terry Doran. So I got to know
and talk to the inner circle who were chums with them.
What’s happened to Terry Doran?
D: I’m not sure. Have you read Shotton’s book?
H: He got stuffed on that didn’t he? I was speaking
to him a few weeks ago. No, I’ve got it
somewhere, is it any good?
D: I enjoyed it. It was different.
H: I think he didn’t get a penny out of it.
D: Oh God. Where have we heard that before?
....... What about Yoko Ono, you mentioned her
when you were in London.
H: That’s in the book as well and you can 'lift' that
if you like! I met her first when I was on the Atticus
column and I described all that…..
D: The ‘bottom’ thing! ( both laugh ) You got out of
being in that movie by saying I can’t give a decent
critique if I’m in it!
H: Then I met her again in the studio with John. I didn’t
interview her for the book. She was sort of, her and
John were off together all the time.
D: Could you feel the effect she was having on the group?
H: Oh, the other ones yeah. They were mystified
and er…… jealous in a way. John had brought his
fancy woman into the thing which they’d never done
– into the inner sanctum. And they were mystified
and they couldn’t work out what was going on and
they weren’t very pleased, really.
D: What about Brian and George? Can you give us
your impressions of them?
H: Well Brian was so hard to pin down and Brian was
being eased out of their lives. And Brian, though I didn’t
really know it at the time - he was always canceling me
and he was always letting me down – I had dates. And of
course I didn’t know what was happening. He was so bunged
up to his eyeballs with drugs and was on sleeping pills.
D: He didn’t really seem to know what he was at, when he
first met you there when you first went to talk
about the book.
H: That’s right, he was fairly dopey then. But he was out
all night on the razzle, or whatever and then was getting
depressed, getting off on pills and then sleeping it off all
morning so he wasn’t there a lot of the time. When he
eventually turned up, when I saw him in Chapel street,
he was – I couldn’t really understand why he cancelled it
and why he was – I’d heard rumours but he always looked,
despite the life he was leading, he looked absolutely
immaculate. He always had startlingly clean shirts on and
ties and polished shoes and lovely suits and he never looked
knackered ( tired ). But the life we now know he was
leading, it wasn’t physically having a bad effect on that -
it’s just that he was letting things slide inside.
D: Do you think nobody knew what was going on in truth?
H: Well, Peter Brown knew. But The Beatles didn’t know
because they were leaving the nest. They were moving off.
They were still friends with Brian, still loved him but
they were really in charge of their own destiny. I mean
the Sergeant Pepper thing, we know, Paul was the major
influence there. Not Brian, not George and then when
Magical Mystery Tour came along that was Paul as well.
So Brian was taking a back seat. And that was probably
adding to his depression realising they were moving
away from him.
D: And he had Cilla also pulling the plug because
she thought she wasn’t getting any attention.
H: Yeah. Brian was absolutely helpful to me. And I
went down to his house in the country – I was invited
for the weekend but decided not to stay the night
( laughs ) for various reasons. It was late at night –
I’ve never revealed who the other person was who was
there but we had dinner at Brian’s house and there was a
famous showbusiness personality there, also gay, and late
at night they were ringing London wanting boys to be sent
down and they were too late ringing – it was a sort of a
call boy number he had where he paid a fee. So all this
was happening and I thought "Oh no, I’m not going to stick
around, I’ll go back to London". But his house was beautiful
in Sussex and the dinner was amazing and he was very
hospitable and totally helpful.
Fab four fooling around
D: Did you say that George Martin didn’t have a lot
of impetus on Sergeant Pepper, is that right?
H: No, obviously I didn’t mean that.
D: That’s okay, I won’t misquote you.
H: But for George it would never have been – I mean
A Day In The Life could never have been created but
for George. But all I’m saying is that George was not
directing them, George was giving advice and being fatherly.
He wasn’t as in Please Please Me saying "we won’t do that
one, we’ll do this one" and "we’re chucking out that,
that’s
not good enough, I don’t think we’ll do that". So that time
had long gone but they relied on him and they couldn’t have
done that album without him.
D: Would you agree on some people’s definition of him
as being the fifth Beatle?
H: Er, well there was no fifth Beatle, there were four
Beatles. I mean, you can’t ......
D: I mean, they didn’t write music and they weren’t musically
trained and he could do that for them and build
on their ideas ......
H: There was never a fifth Beatle. Pete had gone, so
you could say he was a fifth Beatle but he wasn’t.
A fifth Beatle means an equivalent , an equal,
I.e: someone the same age playing in the group.
D: That leads me onto something else actually because
people have said that if you take the four individually
then they’re special, but when you put them all in a room
there’s that extra spark, that pure magic.
Did you notice that?
H: Oh yeah, when they were all together. Well, when
John and Paul were together creating things there was
a spark between them in music and in words. Word play
they would spur each other on and musical play they
would spur each other on, those two particularly.
And they made more progress together than they did
individually. I described that in the book and I still
have a strong memory of that.
And the four of them as well.
George contributed
and so did Ringo.
D: Would you say that those descriptions of The
Beatles
as the quiet one, the nice one, the pushy one, the cynical
one – do you think they are too glib and clichéd?
Could you describe them?
H: Not really. We all, one of the things I used to
be asked was "Which is your favourite Beatle?"
D: "The last one that I spoke to."
H: That’s right. I lifted that from Neil and Mal,
‘cos every
day they would be asked that and that was their smart
way of getting out of it. And it was true in the sense that
each of them did have lots of things, things peculiar to them
but also things that they all had. I mean all four were
remarkable. I mean, all the clichés are true – that
Ringo was the least contributing, least creative of the
four but on the other hand he was the ordinary Joe and he
was witty. But he didn’t get involved in the creative process.
He played the drums and sang his songs.
D: And they needed somebody like that ….
H: And they needed somebody like that, the sort of
solid sensible bloke who was getting bored sitting around
then they’d realise it had gone on for too long and pack
it up. And George was trying to pull them in different
directions at various stages and they needed that too.
D: What were your biggest thrills working on
the biography?
H: Er, doing it. Not writing it, the biggest thrill was
being there at Sergeant Pepper in Abbey Road
during the making of those things. Seeing it happening
in the studio, seeing them layer after layer, adding
stuff on. And also being there at Paul’s house when
John and Paul were together creating.
D: That must have been special. What tracks
can you remember?
H: Getting Better and A Little Help From My Friends
– I saw those two being written from the beginning
thinking of words and about to go in the studio and
thinking they’re going to get it finished or seeing things
at the beginning. So those are two I clearly recall.
The first was Sergeant Pepper, in the studio with
them all together. The second was John and Paul together
at Paul’s house and I suppose the third thrill was being
in John’s house with him on his own, swimming round
with him and talking to him when he was relaxing and
everything else. And that time, you know, we’re swimming
around and we can hear the police siren going ( imitates
police siren sound reminiscent of intro to I Am The
Walrus ) and that was exciting seeing his mental process.
I took it that was the first time he played that tune –
it might have been in his head – but actually seeing it
coming out of him, going in one ear as it went in my ear,
but seeing John playing with that rhythm and creating
a different tune.
D: Marvellous.
H: And being with Paul on Primrose Hill when he started
It’s Getting Better. So those are the highlights.
D: Are you a nostalgic sort of person?
H: Yeah, yeah. I can reminisce about yesterday though,
yesterday with a small ‘y’. And say "wasn’t it brilliant
at Spurs yesterday when Armstrong got that goal.
God it was terrific".
D: Yes, you’re very passionate about your football.
H: I am. Not much to get passionate about at
the moment, but yes.
D: Apart from Beatles collecting is that
one of your main…..
John, George and Paul
H: Interests? Yeah, but work’s the biggest interest
and family of course. But I’m an avid collector.
D: Do you listen to much Beatles music?
H: I have to admit, no. I’ve got no sound system in
the house. I play tapes in the car, only Beatle tapes,
but not a lot so I’m a fraud in that sense.
D: No! I won’t ask you what your favourites are
‘cos you’ll probably say the last one you listened to…..
H: No, I still love Sergeant Pepper and A Day
In The Life.
D: I thought I heard that you were one of the first
people to hear Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields as
well before it came out.
H: When I went to see Brian he had presumably the
acetate and he’d just got the first – I’d heard bits of it
in the studio but hadn’t heard the whole. But Brian played
both sides to me – I remember hearing Strawberry Fields
and thinking how weird it was and then I heard an early
completed version of When I’m Sixty-Four. I was at
Jim McCartney’s house that weekend staying with him
and his new wife Angie. And that morning I was there
and Paul had sent up and advanced copy of When I’m
Sixty-Four, because he’d had his Dad in mind and he adored
his Dad and he knew it was amuse his Dad and we spent the
evening playing it about 100 times like sort of teenagers
jumping up and dancing.
D: Angie’s been in touch with me. She emailed me about
my Jane Asher site……
H: Oh yes?
D: .....And said that she had happy memories of Jane
looking after Ruth and that the site was a great tribute.
H: Well, they all hated .... although they didn’t say it
at the time. But Michael and Paul with a younger woman
coming in to their Father’s life – but Jim seemed happy
with her, but it ended in tears. Paul was furious when
she sold, was it his birth certificate? - which she went
off with, or inherited probably she would say.
D: She and Ruth are doing something on the internet
now – they’ve got a big company on the net but I don’t
know the details. But they’ve emailed me a couple of
times just to say thanks for doing that tribute to Jane.
H: Anyway David, not much else I can say.
You’ve done jolly well ( laughs ).
D: What are you working on at the moment?
H: I’m just finishing a football book. I’m just
sitting here with the corrections.
It’s the biography of Joe Kinnear.
D: I’ve heard of him.
H: He’s been my friend for thirty years ‘cos he was
in the Spurs team that I wrote about and he had a
heart attack about a year ago at Wimbledon and
so I’ve been writing his biography for him as a chum
and he’s hoping very soon to get back to football.
D: So he didn’t want a ghost-writer, he wanted
you to do a biography.
H: Yeah, it’s not an autobiography. It’s a biography so
I’ve written half with Joe talking and half with
me talking to other people, his Mum and
describing his life.
D: I’ll mention that on the site so you might
get a few extra sales.
H: Right. Thanks David.
D: I’ve had an email from a guy in Hollywood who’s
saying he wants to invite you over for a sixties movies
fest over there, I don’t know when it is, have you
heard of these things?
H: I’ve heard of all the Beatles conferences.
D: No this isn’t Beatles-related, they’re showing
‘Mulberry Bush’.
H: Oh, Mulberry Bush? That’s good.
D: Shall I put you in touch with this guy?
H: You can give him my fax.
D: You don’t mind me doing that?
H: Oh no. Funnily enough there’s a record company
in America called Recon or ArCon or something and
they specialise in sixties albums and I don’t know
whether they re-mix them but they re-package them
and they asked me to do the sleeve notes for it so
I did that a year ago. I wonder if they ever
sent me a copy….
D: ( Laughs ) You get so much stuff you’re still
wading through it.
H: It was a nice thing to do and it brought
back happy memories.
And, as you know, that was part of the reason I
went to see Paul because we were hoping, Clive the
director was hoping that Paul would do the theme tune.
D: I enjoyed that film.
H: I thought the music was terrific.
D: I know you asked Paul to do the music but I
think Traffic did a bloody good job.
H: Yes.
D: I enjoyed that film because I lived in a new town.
H: Which one?
D: Basildon.
H: Yes, so you knew the background.
D: Oh yes!
Are you going to be updating
the biography? One thing I would have liked in
the biography is an index.
H: In my biography? Yeah, we did it – it was all a
mad rush in the end – adding things all the time.
And I was doing appendices…..
D: An index would be very useful….
H: I suppose…… actually, they’re redoing it now.
D: Can you give them a phone call – ( laughs )
I’m being cheeky here.
H: In fact, I’ve done a new introduction rather than
putting the introductions together. For the year 2000
you know with Linda’s death and George’s attack. Do you
do indices – would you do it for them?
D: I’d certainly think about it.
H: They’re quite time-consuming.
( Gives contact details ........... )
That will mean of course another ten pages.
D: Do they pay well for that?!
H: No.
D: It’s a labour of love, then.
H: It’s a labour of love, really.
D: Have you heard about the book that Paul, George
and Ringo are supposed to be writing?
H: Well that’s totally a non-event as far as
I’m concerned.
D: Really?
H: Yeah. I take it to be the anthology stuff. Most
of the anthology stuff was interesting to watch but
totally non-revelatory. There was nothing new in it
and it was all fairly schmaltzy and glossed-over and
I’m assuming this is from the same source so I can’t
believe there’s anything new in it. We’ve now got to
the stage where there are about fifty Beatles experts
who know more about The Beatles than The Beatles do.
And they’re continually writing very academic,
highly ....... you know.
D: What are your favourite Beatles books?
Apart from yours ( laughs )
H: I still like the little fan club ones. I’d have to think
about that. I did at the end of my book once do
the top ten Beatles books.
D: What was this, for the ’85 printing?
H: Yes. I’m just looking at it. ( pages rustling )
I love The Beatles book
– the monthly magazine, I’m still very fond of that.
D: That’s good, ‘cos that hasn’t changed very much.
H: Yeah, it’s amazing it’s still going. No, I haven’t
really got a favourite one.
D: Well thanks very much Hunter.
H: Thanks David, all the best.
D: I’ll send you a print-out of what I’ve written up
so you know what’s going on.
H: Very kind.
D: Thanks for your time.
H: Alright, bye
Thanks Hunter. Digger, April 2000
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